DOUG BELL 705 CHERRY STREET COLLEGE STATION, TX 77840 USA
Unto Master Francois la Flamme, Laurel King of Arms, Mari Elspeth nic Bryan,
Pelican Queen of Arms, Zenobia Naphtali, Wreath Sovereign of Arms, and the
College of Arms greetings.
I would beg leave to offer comments on the following letters of intent. If
anyone else wishes to send me Commentary or Letters of Intent in electronic
form, my address is debell@txcyber.com
I remain in service to the College this 21st of May 2002
Magnus von Lübeck, Orle Herald
Comments
Ansteorra (3-17), Outlands (3-17), Lochac (3-18), Atlantia (3-21), Calontir
(3-23), Trimaris (no date), Lochac (4-20), Drachenwald (4-23), Aethelmearc
(4-23)
Comments on Comments
Trimaris (2-15), Lochac (2-20), Ansteorra (3-17)
COMMENTS
ANSTEORRA 3-17-2002
1. Alessandra Giovanna de'Medici [Name] This is the correct form of the
name. [1/1998 LoAR Meridies-A] "Costanza Angelique de' Medici. Name.
Submitted as Costanza Angelique de Medici, the byname was incorrectly spelled.
We have corrected this as the submitter allows."
[Device] The sable phoenix is difficult to identify.
3. Ana María de Cerdanya [Device] Cerdaña crosses are registerable. It
would be nice if this non-period item was discontinued after a reasonable time.
4. Cara Mondragon [Name] The name mixes Italian and Spanish but is
registerable as a weirdness.
8. Hans Faust dem herlat [Name] When the submitter chose a name no one
realized Hans and Johannes were the same name in German. He has used this name
for so long and is trying to register something reasonably close. Please note
that the submitter has no wish to meet Mephistopheles.
9. Simon Piroska [Name] This name is documented incorrectly. Simon is a
male given name and Piroska is a matronymic. The enclosed documentation
supports unmarked patronymics and matronymics. This is necessary because of
SCA practice doesn't exactly match historical Magyar naming practices.
OUTLANDS 3-17-2002
(unnumbered in LoI) Outlands (1-17) 10) Gauvain Eisenbein [Device appeal]
I applaud efforts to get rid of non-period practices from the society's early
years. However, we must allow clearance time for such changes, be it rules,
charges, or practices. The time considerations are 2 months from meeting to
LoAR publication, 4-5 months for items to clear Laurel level processing, and
3-4 months to clear kingdoms with internal commenting. Additional time must
also be allowed after publication for people using such items to make an effort
to register them. Honeycombed treatments were banned at the September 2001
meeting which wasn't published until early December. Items with this treatment
already at Laurel would clear by April 2002 meeting. Items from kingdoms will
continue to arrive through the August 2002 meeting. You also have to deal with
clients who have unregistered armory affected by this. If someone read this
when it became public and immediately submitted their armory it could be
September or October before it came to a decision meeting. We should also
require timely responses in this policy. If you delay submitting armory when
such a notice is given then your chance passes you by. The CoA needs to
discuss what is a fair and reasonable time to sunset things we can't document.
The solution to some items lately has been to simply ban an existing charge or
practice and return the submission. The submitter has an excellent basis for
an appeal when this happens and I would recommend any such return be appealed.
4. Diana of the Tulips [Badge] The leaves are difficult to identify with
no detailing. The color copy no doubt is better than this emblazon. When this
was shown to non-heralds, the remark was it looked like a knife and fork set.
If drawn more carefully it should be acceptable.
6. Jeanne-Marie Dubois [Name] It would be useful to see her full name if
she wants the legal name allowance. Some evidence of the use of hyphens would
be helpful but we have: "The submitter has provided documentation for the use
of hyphens in some late period French names. While we are not sure that all
French names may be combined with hyphens, we are giving him the benefit of the
doubt. (Yvon-Maurice Charon, 8/98 p. 2)" The hyphen should be dropped
considering the request for authenticity is not late period.
8. Kjalvor Eyjadotter [Name] The given name would be Kjalv{o,}r and the
last name would be a matronymic Eyjudóttir from Geirr Bassi.
11. Michael of Ravenskeep [Name] Endroc is a town in Hungary in county
Baranya and region of Southern Transdanubia. HolinfoBank gives this modern
information but I don't know how old this name is. Perhaps Nebuly can find
something. Ravenskeep- R&W page 261 s.n. Keep gives de Kepe from 1332. Page
372 s.n. Ravenhall gives de Rauenhull 1230 from Ravenhill, page 373 s.n.
Ravenshaw gives de Ravenshagh 1332 from dweller by the Raven wood, and s.n.
Ravensthorpe gives de Raventhorpe 1294. The submission is rather confused. It
appears to ask for two names, doesn't document either byname, and wants
authenticity for England. I would recommend a return, with information
included from commentary, to allow for one of these names to be submitted.
LOCHAC 3-18-2002
1. Catalina Ximena de Villanova y Santa Maria del Cami [Name] I have seen
some evidence for true double given names used in female Spanish names. Were
matronymics used in Spain? I haven't encountered any either marked or
unmarked. The following precedents gives support for double locatives and four
element names. The y locative name structure has been registered and declared
to be modern practice. I would like to see a ruling on these issues to guide
name construction for Spanish. [Constanzia Maria Morales Enzina d'Zamora,
10/97 p.11] "The primary problem with the name is the form: . A quick survey of the first 4000
names (A-C) in the sixth volume of the Catalogo (dating around 1580), shows of
those names, 5 had possibly four elements, and none had five. Of those five
names, two (María Alvarez de Sotomayor de Quiroga and Pedro Gonzalez de Baeza
de los Hermanos) are probably actually of the form
. One other (Diego de Peralta Cabeza de Vaca) is probably of
the form as Cabeza de Vaca is
independently listed as a place name (in volume IV). The other two use the
modern y formation: Diego García de Montalvo y Colindra and Miguel Jeronimo de
Mendoza y Arquillada. [The name was returned.])" [Talan Gwynek, LoAR October
1995, p. 19 Domingo Diego Diaz de la Vega y Martin] This name, with two given
names and three surnames, is significantly more complex than any available
documented Spanish name. [The name was returned.]"
2. Dareios Rossos the Vigilant [Name] Laiou-Thomadakis is the only source
I have on the requested time period. It gives no definite support for double
given names in Byzantine Greek. The bynames used therein are very literal and
none are as abstract as vigilant. Also, no precedents could be found on double
given names in Greek or mixed Greek/English names. We need evidence of direct
contact between England and Byzantine empire during the 14th-15th century.
Encarta under vigil indicates the word entered English in the 13th century from
French and Latin. No evidence was found for the use of vigilant as a period
Greek byname so Lingua Anglica won't help here. A modern Greek/English
dictionary doesn't tell us if the word is period or that it was used as part of
a name.
ATLANTIA 3-21-2002
1) Bright Hill, Barony of [Badge] Name registered July 1989 needs to be
included with the submission. The mini emblazon chopped off the poor
creature's head. The barony should have provided a citation and a photocopy of
the item from the cited source. This is a new charge that requires
documentation and none was included. If you wish to propose this as a new
constructed monster then it must be documented as per Rfs.VII.5. "Compatible
Monsters. - Monsters compatible with period armorial practice may be registered
in armory. Monsters described in period sources may be used in the Society,
even if they were not used in period heraldry. New monsters may be formed for
Society use on the analogy of period monsters, so long as all components remain
sufficiently identifiable in the compound monster. For example, the Society has
created the sea unicorn parallel to the sea lion and sea horse." The word with
both of these methods is documentation and none was included.
2. Brita Hughs [Name] Persona stories aren't documentation so don't
bother. Women in Sweden were named as their father's daughter and only rarely
after their husband. Report 2296 indicates this usually meant she was a widow.
The report doesn't recommend the use of a non Swedish name as we have here.
Hugh is used in France, England, and Germany but I don't find it in Sweden.
Can anyone find a Swedish equivalent of Hugh and place it in the genitive case?
This may be a Swedish language mixed name as a weirdness but something must be
done to get the byname into a single language. Mixing language or practice
within the same element will cause a return. It should also be noted that the
custom of women adopting the husband's name is largely post-period.
3. Cecily Clervaux [Name] R&W page 98 s.n. Clarvis gives Michael de
Clervaus from 1208.
4. Cloelia of the Mists [Name] Mists, Principality of the was registered
in May of 1980. It appears that names from the Aeneid are registerable.
[February 1996 LoAR Middle-A Ewander Maclachlan. Name] "The given name was
submitted as Evander MacLachlan on the LoI; his forms had Maclachlan. Evander
is the English form of Greek Éuandros, the name of a legendary king credited
with civilizing Latium and said to have been the son of Hermes and a nymph. He
figures in the Aeneid as an ally of Aeneas, so the name was available as part
of the Classical tradition."
5. Delphina the Mad [Name] Farmer page 134 s.n. Delphine of Province lived
1284-1360 in France. Bardsley page 505 s.n. Mad gives Jordan le Madde from the
reign of Edward I. R&W page 108 s.n. Coot gives "the mad coote" from 1529.
[February 2002 LoAR Atlantia-A Tahir the Mad] "Bardsley (p. 505 s.n. Mad) dates
Jordan le Madde to 20 Edw. I. As the spelling mad appears in Shakespeare (A
Comedy of Errors, Act II, Scene ii), the Mad is a plausible period variant of
the documented le Madde." The name is a registerable mix of French and
English.
7. Elizabeth Margarete [Name] Bardsley page 513 s.n. Margaret gives Hugh
Margarete from 1273.
8. Gianetta Veronese [Name] Actually the locative form is da Verona as
given in Mittleman & Scott.
10. Howard of Brockenhurst [Name] The mundane name allowance policy is
very clear: no document, no allowance. It isn't needed here so what is the
reason to bring it up? The commentors would like to know what Ekwall had to
say about the name. Page 67 s.n. Brockenhurst gives Brocheherst from 1158 and
Brokenherst from 1182. This needs to be included from a no photocopy source.
11. Ingvild Gøstafsdotter [Name] We also need to know the name was
registered in July of 2001 (via Atlantia). The last name is grandfathered
automatically.
12. Kevin of Thornbury [Badge] Name registered June 1996. This is his
fourth piece of armory to be registered.
13. Lassar ingen Artúr [Name] OCM page 121 s.n. Lassar gives it as a
pre-1200 spelling. The saints associated with the name suggest it was used as
early as the 7th century. The article should be lower case ingen. OCM page 25
s.n. Artúr dates it to 596. Woulfe page 320 s.n. Mac Artúir indicates the
genitive form is Artúir.
14. Michel von Schonsee [Name] If a proper summary is not provided in the
LoI it is grounds for return. [April 2000 LoAR cover letter] "Starting with the
July 2000 LoI's we are going to tighten our interpretation of V.B.2.d. so that
items that don't have a proper summary of supporting evidence may be returned
instead of pended."
15. Osanna Emiliani [Name] De Felice (Nomi) page 291 s.n. Osanna mentions
the name from 1505. De Felice (Cognomi) page 118 s.n. Emiliani.
16. Roana de Laci [Device] Name registered November 2001.
17. Seamus MacInneirghe [Badge] Name registered February 2002 as Séamus
mac Inneirghe.
19. Yoshimitsu Hideyoshi [Name] Solveig s.n. Yo page 365 Yoshimitsu lists
it as a historical masculine nanori from 1332. Page 332 s.n. Chi lists
Hideyoshi as a historical masculine nanori. This name has no surname and such
have been returned in the past: [LoAR September 1995 TRIMARIS-R Arinaga
Yoshiakira] "Both elements of the name are nanori, or `formal names';
unfortunately, a name consisting of two nanori and no surname does not appear
to follow period Japanese practice."
CALONTIR 3-23-2002
2. Angus John Macleod [Device] "Per pale sable and argent, two wolf's
heads respectant, a bordure counterchanged." Conflict with Killian Stewart
September 1995: "Per pale sable and argent, two wolves heads respectant
counterchanged."
3. Angus John Macleod [Badge] This ape doesn't look like the standard one
we register. This goes beyond artistic variation and may cause problems with
identifiability and non-period style.
6. Dietrich Hartmann [Name] Talan gives Dietrich from 1318.
Brechenmacher, page 656 s.n. Hartmann gives Hartwicus Hartmanni from 1272.
8. Maire O'Neill of Forgotten Sea [Name] SCA group name registered May
1989. OCM page 133 s.n. Máire gives the name from the 14th and 16th century.
Woulfe page 625 s.n. Ó Néill gives the name from 943 to the 16th century. This
name does mix English and Gaelic but that is a single registerable weirdness.
Please don't use Coghlan to document anything. It is on the list of
unacceptable books. "Coghlan, Ronan, Ida Grehan and P.W. Joyce, Book of Irish
Names The Book of Irish Names is an abysmal SCA source, particularly its
discussion of first names, which is a description of modern (20th century)
Irish naming practices. (Ensign [Cateline de la Mor la souriete] LoC, 17
February 1996)"
9. Od Barbarossa [Name] Od as referenced is Latin. Catalan gives P.
(probably Pere/Petrus) Barbarossa from the 12th century Latin.
[Device] "Chevronny sable and ermine, a bear rampant contourny gules" Possible
conflict with Elfarch Myddfai April 1989: "Or, a bear legged of an eagle's legs
rampant to sinister gules."
TRIMARIS (This letter had no date)
2. Beatrice de Windlow [Badge] (Fieldless) "An antelope's head erased
argent, collared counter-ermine." Versus Armida Morgan July 1974: "Azure, the
head of a hind erased argent." There is a CD for fieldless and one for the
collar. [Jaelle of Armida, LoAR February 1997, p. 22] "While we grant a CD for
gorging of a beast's head, when it is a sole primary, as drawn the collar is so
small that it is not worth blazoning, and therefore cannot count for
difference."
3. Conall MacGregor [Name] Black page 476 s.n. Macconnal gives Conall as
an ancient personal name from Old Irish. Page 505 s.n. MacGregor gives
mcGregoure 1603. Conall appears to have been used in Scots but it is difficult
to be certain from Black's entry.
5. Jeanne Francesca Fitzgerald [Name] Jeanne is a female given name from
1530 Kent in Goodwyn. Francesca could only be found in Italian. Drake gives it
from 14th to 15th century. Jones gives Edmoundo Fitzgerald from the mid-1500s
as an English name found in Ireland. There appear to be no temporal problems
with the name. The name is registerable as an English-Italian mix with one
weirdness.
7. Philip Cloonagh [Badge] (fieldless) "A pegasus salient azure" This may
conflict with Morgan Nightbear January 1990: (Fieldless)"A unicornate pegasus
salient, wings displayed, azure."
9. Sapphira der Vrech [Name] Brechenmacher page 497 s.n. Frech gives from
Heinr. dictus Freche from 1305. Based on precedents on Biblical names Sapphira
would be registerable in English but not in German. If Sapphira is viewed as
just an English name then it is a weirdness for mixing German and English.
[Esther Millar, 05/00, A-Outlands] "Esther would appear to be constructed in a
period manner - it is a Biblical name, and Biblical names were used in England.
We can therefore register the name." [November 1995 LoAR Calontir-A] "Lois an
der Baumhecke. Name. We are giving the name the benefit of the doubt. No
evidence was presented that Germany shared the late-period English vogue for
resurrecting obscure Biblical names, but the name can also be somewhat
tenuously justified as a combination of Old French Lo‹s (i.e., Louis) with a
German byname." [February 1992 LoAR East-A Sapphira the Navigator] "As I have
been loath to do with Withycombe and other of our "standard" names sources, I
do not wish to start going the through the Bible and making lists of exceptions
to the names documented therefrom. Yes, as a number of commenters noted, the
name Sapphira has sufficient negative connotations in the Bible itself that it
is unlikely to have been used as a name in Period. The fact remains, however,
that it was in the "pool" of available Biblical names, and it should remain
available to members of the SCA until and unless proven "guilty" of sufficient
impossibility or sufficient offense to warrant banning it."
10. Ylaria of Loxley [Name] Ylaria is from 1208 in the given
documentation. Please note it is under Eularia in pre-1250 and it is a typo in
the name list.
LOCHAC 4-20-2002
4. Mynjon du Jardin [Device] "Quarterly sable and Or, a cross raguly
between four roundels all counterchanged." This device looks like modern style
and op-art. Given the following precedent it appears to go beyond the limits
we accept for counterchanging. [Etienne de Bracieux, 1/99 p. 6] "registering
Quarterly argent and sable, a cross moline quarter-pierced, counterchanged.
This cross is at the very limits of acceptability for counterchanging."
AETHELMEARC 4-23-2002
12. Cadell Blaidd du [Badge] (Fieldless) "An hourglass sable." Please
check these two items to ensure they are visually clear of this submission.
Middle, Kingdom of the May 2000: (Fieldless) "A chalice sable." Jean le
Montebank June 1987: (Fieldless) "A cup inverted distilling a goutte sable."
The precedent is from [LoAR 26 Nov 89, p. 36] "After much soul-searching and a
comparison of the emblazons, we decided that the shapes are too similar for
complete difference of charge to exist between a goblet and an hourglass ...
under both the old rules and the new. The visual assonance is very clear: the
only difference between the two devices with the hourglass drawn in one of its
standard Society depictions (i.e., without the posts) is the balance and
"fatness" of the lower portion of the goblet."
20. Duncan MacAengus of Skye [Name] Speed's 1616 atlas page 266 gives the
name as Skye.
23. Hunter's Home, Shire of [Device] Was a petition included for the
device change?
30. Murdoch Bayne [Badge] "Per pale ermine and vert, in sinister a lion's
head cabossed Or." This is marshaling the arms of Brittany December 1994:
"Ermine." and Jehanne de Lyonesse July 1971: "Vert, a lion's head affronty Or,
orbed vert."
41. Stormsport, Shire of [Device} Was a petition included for the device
change?
45. William le Forestier [Device] Please note his name was returned by
Laurel October 2001 LoAR Aethelmearc-R.
DRACHENWALD 4-23-2002
2. Margareta Blacke of York [Device] "Azure, semy-de-lys, a decrescent
argent." Possible conflict with Diana de Savigny August 1978:"Azure, a
decrescent within seven trees in orle argent." There is one CD for change of
type from trees to fleurs. Nothing for seven items vs. a semy and nothing for
arrangement of a semy vs. in orle. "Furthermore, the difference between a
semydelys versus an orle of fleurdelys does not, at least in this case, seem
sufficient to provide a CD." (Jaelle of Armida, CL December 18, 1996 [with the
December 1996 LoAR], p. 5)
COMMENTS ON COMMENTS
Trimaris 2-15-2002 Re Garnet 4-20-2002
19. Trimaris, Kingdom of - Turtle Ship Herald. I agree with Garnet that
this should be returned but another issue raised by her discussion. No
precedents could be located that we have ever registered Korean names. No
evidence could be located of any substantial contact between Korea and pre-1600
Europe. This would make Korea one of our no contact cultures and would also be
a cause for return. Laurel needs to address this as well.
Lochac 2-20-2002 Re Brachet 4-23-2002
2. Esteban de Quesada - The use of an SCA invented charge is not a
weirdness. We either register the charge or we don't. The valknut is not an
SCA invented charge but a period Norse design that is easily reproducible. It
is found on two runestones depicted at Statens Historisk Museum #5612 and
#5642. We register the triquetra, Thor's hammer, the Mogen David and other
religious symbols that are period but not always used in period heraldry.
Inverting a charge isn't a weirdness but it can be a cause for return. Animate
charges (other than some tergiant reptiles and insects) and complex charges
like ships aren't registered at all. Compromises its identifiability? The
triangle is one of the simplest geometric figures so how could there be
problems identifying it. Baron Bruce dealt with the valknut years ago in
(Halvdan Stormulv, September, 1993, pg. 3). There isn't a need to revisit it.
Ansteorra 3-17-2002 Re Rouge Scarpe 4-9-2002
3. Ana Maria de Cerdanya - There are 8 registrations of this cross (most
recently July 2000) and it is in the Pictorial Dictionary. Why does the
submitter need to provide evidence it was used in period armory? Actually, it
is one of those wretched SCA inventions that should be sent on its way with a
whisk broom. We should register this one and allow plenty of time for
submissions of it to clear. Then it should go away unless someone finds it in
period usage.
REFERENCES
Bardsley, Charles Wareing, A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames,
(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., reprinted 1996; originally
published London, 1901).
Black, George F., The Surnames of Scotland (New York, NY: The New York Public
Library, 1946).
Brechenmacher, Josef Karlmann. Etmologisches Worterbuch der Deutschen
Familiennamen. Limburg a. d. Lahn: C.A. Stark-Verlag, 1957-60.
Catalan: Juliana de Luna, Catalan Names in Latin Contexts: the late 12th
century,
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/juliana/catalan12/catalan12data.html#list.
De Felice (Cognomi): De Felice, Emidio, Dizionario dei Cognomi Italiani (Italy:
Mondadori, 1986).
De Felice (Nomi): De Felice, Emidio, Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani (Italy:
Mondadori, 1978).
Drake, Jo Lori, Italian Renaissance Women's Names,
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/rhian/italian.html.
Encarta Online Dictionary, http://dictionary.msn.com/.
Farmer, David Hugh, Oxford Dictionary of Saints, 3rd edition (Suffolk, England:
Oxford University Press, 1992).
Goodwyn, Julian, English Names from Pre-1600 Brass Inscriptions,
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/brasses/women.html.
HolinfoBank, Hungary Municipalities,
http://www.holinfobank.net/fhu/municipalities/mn0140e.fhu.htm.
Jones, Heather Rose, Names and Naming Practices in the Fitzwilliam Accounts
from 16th Century Ireland - Analysis of Usage,
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/fitzwilliam-analysis.html#Appearance.
Laiou-Thomadakis, Angeliki E., Peasant Society in the Late Byzantine Empire,
Princeton University Press, 1977.
Mittleman & Scott, Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names,
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/venice14sur.html#table.
OCM: ÓCorráin, Donnchadh and Fidelma Maguire, Irish Names, 2nd edition (Dublin,
Ireland: Lilliput Press, 1990).
R&W: Reaney & Wilson: Reaney, P. H. and R. M. Wilson, A Dictionary of English
Surnames, 3rd edition (Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1995).
Solveig: Throndardottir, Solveig, Name Construction in Mediaeval Japan, Free
Trumpet Studies in Heraldry & Onomastics 87 (Albuquerque, NM: The Outlaw Press,
1994).
Speed, John, The Counties of Britain - A Tudor Atlas, Thames & Hudson, New
York, 1989.
Statens Historisk Museum, Stockholm,
http://www.historiska.se/collections/shm-bild/visa_stor.asp?ID=5642.
Statens Historisk Museum, Stockholm,
http://www.historiska.se/collections/shm-bild/visa_stor.asp?ID=5612.
Talan: Talan Gwynek, Medieval German Given Names from Silesia,
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/bahlow/bahlowMasc.html.
Woulfe: Woulfe, Patrick, Irish Names and Surnames, Special Revised Edition
(Kansas City, MO: Irish Genealogical Foundation, 1992).